15 Rounds with Mark Allen Baker

Posted on | August 19, 2010 | No Comments

By: Patrick McElligott

{1} Congratulations on your new book, “Title Town USA: Boxing in Upstate New York.” And thank you for producing one of the most interesting and valuable books on the sport’s history. What motivated you to approach this topic in the manner you did? For example, focusing on the upstate New York region, rather than New York City?

A. Thank you very much Patrick and it is a pleasure having the opportunity to speak with you. Your comments are very kind and I am indeed humbled. “Title Town, U.S.A., Boxing in Upstate New York” is a project I have been wanting to do for some time and having the chance to work with The History Press, made it the perfect opportunity. The motivation was my love for central New York, its residents and their rich boxing history. I have had the privilege to work with many of the wonderful people in Canastota, New York for decades now, especially those at the International Boxing Hall of Fame, and it has been a delightful and memorable experience.

{2} We were pleased to see information on the Frawley Act and the Walker Law. The records of many fighters from the second-half of the nineteenth century through the first two decades of the twentieth century are either incomplete or entirely missing, because boxing was either restricted or illegal in the state. How difficult is it to find reliable information on “bootleg bouts” and those fights with “newspaper decisions”?

A. It has been extremely hard. Records are incomplete or inaccurate, press reports are bias, licensing records do not reflect the record books. We have also tragically lost some of our premier historians, individuals like Hank Kaplan (Miami, FL) and Paul Zabala (Saratoga Springs,NY). Having written the inductee biographies for the International Boxing Hall of Fame (until 2002,) I know firsthand how invaluable individuals like these gentlemen were, the thought of not having someone to fill their shoes frightens me.

{3} Across New York, there has been increasing interest in community-based historical societies. This includes towns like Delhi, Sherburne and Norwich, which used to hold boxing cards on a regular basis. Does the International Boxing Hall of Fame have a program for accessing this information, since it frequently is not available on the internet?

A . Thank God there has been a renewed interest in these local groups because they provide an indispensable service to the community and institutions like the International Boxing Hall of Fame. Complimented by organizations such as Buffalo Veteran Boxers Association, Ring #44 these factions have a knack for unearthing valuable information. I am sure the International Boxing Hall of Fame has a method for accessing this data but am uncertain as to the flexibility and availability of it. There has been talk for many years about streamlining these resources, I hope that will come to fruition in the years to come.

{4} “Title Town USA” features great information that connects boxing with the immigrants who worked on New York’s canals and railroads. No other sport has had such a long and close relationship with the social, economic, and political dynamics of our culture than boxing. Why do you think there is such a lack of boxing gyms and clubs, outside of the large metropolitan areas?

A. Great question. Unfortunately much of the public remains outside the ropes with regard to boxing’s’ rich history. Many would like to see the public education system do a better job in enlightening students on the significance of the sport. An improved public awareness would naturally increase interest and thus funding for more gyms and clubs. Thankfully, upstate New York has been blessed with many apostles of “The Sweet Science.” Trainers like Ray Rinaldi of Syracuse refuses to be deterred from his mission of boxing public awareness.

{5} Some people associated with the sport, such as Teddy Atlas and Floyd Mayweather, Jr., work with charitable foundations that invest in communities. Should promoters assist in attempts to build boxing up from the grass roots’ level, by donating to boxing gyms and clubs?

A. God Bless both these gentlemen for keeping their priorities straight and bringing the great sport of boxing to a whole new generation. I think all of the sanctioning bodies should unite in the adoption of a minor ticket surcharge, let’s say two dollars. This fee would be used to fund three causes: a boxing veterans fund, the International Boxing Hall of Fame and finally a predetermined local boxing fund. The benefits of all three are obvious.

{6} What role have the small gyms and clubs played in boxing’s history? What impact does the lack of these gyms and clubs have on the sport today, in both amateur and professional boxing?

A. The art of self defense needs to be trained properly to avoid injury. Adequately funded gyms and clubs can attract qualified talent in all aspect of the sport, not just fighters. We needs these facilities to continue to cultivate that talent by providing opportunities. During the days of Tommy Ryan, the late 19th Century, the clubs, such as the Empire Athletic Club in Buffalo or the Rienzi Athletic Club in Rochester, could guarantee a solid match, an adequate venue, good seconds and a clean fight. They could avoid all the problems inherent with a major promotion.

{7} The history of amateur boxing is fascinating, though it is too often overlooked for a variety of reasons. In his autobiography, Sugar Ray Robinson devoted numerous pages to his amateur career, which included fights in upstate New York. However, he didn’t mention that George Gainford pulled him out of a scheduled match with Steve Kukol, in what would have been Ray’s last amateur bout. Kukol, a national Golden Gloves Champion, had gone the distance with Ray in each of their previous four fights, including two that Ray won by close, controversial decisions. Gainford explained his decision to pull Ray out of the fight by telling Johnson City promoter Mickey Barno that “Kukol knows Ray’s style too good – he always makes Ray look bad.”

In researching your book, did you find a lot of information on amateur boxing history? Have you considered writing a book on that topic?

A. My grandfather, who was a club boxer in Binghamton, New York used to tell me stories about the talented Steve Kukol. Those pre-WWII days saw many outstanding Golden Gloves’ champions, people like Kukol, Joe Kelly, and Willie Smith. People are shocked when I tell them that “Title Town U.S.A., Boxing in Upstate New York” ended up only a tenth of the size I actually wrote. There is, as you know, so much more to tell. If the right opportunity came along, I would certainly consider writing more.

{8} Pugnacious Promotions recently made their annual event at Saratoga Springs a “Pro-Am” card. I remember back on May 19, 1975, being in the featured amateur bout on the Mike Nixon vs Mike Rossman card at the Broome County Arena in Binghamton. Do you think that including some amateur contests on the pro fight cards builds interest in amateur boxing?

A. Wow, I can’t imagine the thrill – shivers just ran up my spine. That being said, I think it can build interest in the sport, but it must be done correctly, which would require the proper promoter in the “right” market. I would hate for it to have an adverse effect on a fighter, which could happen if an audience doesn’t understand or appreciate amateur boxing.

{9} Your book mentioned the Nixon vs Rossman fights. Those two fought during an era that produced some of the best light heavyweight fights and champions. Rossman, as your book notes, did go on to win the title. What do guys like a Mike Nixon or Dickie DiVeronica, contenders who fought against champions and top contenders, but never quite get the shot at the title, mean to fight fans?

A. They are an integral part of the fight game because they force a champion to “step-up” their skills – those who follow the sport know and understand this. Given the opportunity, they can also be tremendous ambassadors for the fight game. Dickie DiVeronica’s participation in in the Hall of Fame weekend is welcomed warmly by fans who have grown to appreciate his boxing skills. I know I speak for many fans when I say “Please invite more contenders to attend the Boxing Hall of Fame Weekend.”

{10} Another local fighter that I always had great respect for was Tommy Kost. He fought tough guys like Moses Harrell and Tony Ventura at the Broome County Arena, and he also fought at Madison Square Garden twice. Area boxing fans loved Tommy Kost, in part because he never looked to have local promoters put him in with soft opposition.

A. The late-1960s and early-1970s was another fun era for fight fans. Kost was , without a doubt, a fan favorite. Some of us thought he was crazy to enter the ring with Ventura in 1974 – the fight that saw him breaking his jaw in the first round. But I don’t think he would have had it any other way. Talk about the importance of clubs, Kost fought out of the Catholic Youth Center in Scranton for some time. Ventura “ate leather outta Lockport,” most, myself included, envisioned him playing fullback for the Chicago Bears rather than “lacing ’em up” against some of the Miami hopefuls at the time. Things might have been different for him too, had he beat Chuvalo in either fight.

{10A} When I think of Kost, I believe that he always entered the ring at about 196 pounds. I don’t remember him being over 200 pounds. Today, he’d be a cruiserweight, and many of his opponents would be considered small heavyweights. Do you think the heavyweight division should be divided, perhaps at about 225 pounds, so that a 205-pound fighter isn’t forced to challenge a 250-pound giant, like one of the Klitschko brothers?

A. As an advocate of safety this issue will have to be addressed, certainly that is an option. Since every few years we are getting a better caliber of athlete at these higher weight levels adjustments will have to be made.

{11} One of the most honorable people I’ve met in boxing was Carl Delberta, the founder of the Oneonta Boys and Girls Club. As a young man, he fought as “Carl Dell,” winning numerous amateur titles, and becoming a top welterweight contender while in Al Weill’s stable. Welterweight champion Freddie Cochran refused to fight Delberta.

In 1940, Delberta fought the legendary Charlie Burley, who was known for being “too good for his own good.” Burley, who never was given a shot at the title, was one of the few men who Sugar Ray Robinson opted not to face in the professional ranks.

You mentioned in a letter that your book started out much larger than its final form. Are you considering publishing a second volume, with more information on fighters such as Carl Dell and Bucky Lawless?

A. I would love to write a second volume and both those fighters are certainly worthy of much more attention. First, when I mentioned Burley to Eddie Futch, he just gave me that “blank stare” everyone seems to give you when you mention Burley – he was an extraordinary fighter. Many upstate boxing fans are aware of both Dell (Del Berta or Delberta) and Lawless. Dell fought some great fighters, including Burley, Holman Williams and the Cocoa Kid, and managed to get on some solid fight cards. I knew of Lawless as a youth and he fought some of my favorite fighters of the era including Jackie Brady – another fighter I would add to the list.

{12} My great uncle, Patrick McElligott, promoted boxing cards in Sherburne, N.Y. Among the boxers who fought on the were Bushy Graham and Carmen Basilio. I used to discuss those fights with Carmen years ago, though they do not appear on his official record. Bucky Lawless fought in Sherburne several times, although only one of those bouts is on his official record. Bucky often lived at Uncle Pat’s house, and Uncle Pat drove him to his fights around the northeast.

One of the fascinating things that is on Bucky’s record is that he fought against thirteen men who would hold championships. Some of these involved series, such as three bouts against Vince Dundee, and seven against Gorilla Jones. Bucky fought anywhere between 145 and 170 pounds, against guys who won titles in a wide range of weight classes.

What do you think is the impact of the much larger number of weight classes in boxing today? Would that larger number have made a difference in the career of a tough guy like Bucky Lawless?

A. An accurate, yet realistic line of demarkation must be drawn to insure safety, consistency and competition (value) – an extremely difficult task for each sanctioning body. When that range has been properly regulated for each weight class, then we can determine the magic number. I think the large number of weight classes can be confusing for a fighter.

Historians understand that weight class means little to an extremely talented fighter, someone like Harry Greb. Knowing what I know about Lawless, I think it would have helped him.

{13} Should there be a national boxing commission in the United States today? If there was one, what type of structure and authority might it have? Can you think of people who would be good for heading such a commission?

A. This is a question out of my expertise. As a historian we are interested in the preservation of the sport through its execution and its integrity. We are also concerned about the safety of the participants and fan satisfaction. What ever structure can best support these goals would interest boxing historians.

{14} Great fighters such as Sam Langford, Charlie Burley, and Georgie Benton never held world titles. Surely, in today’s circumstances, with at least four alphabet titles, they would. Does this increased number of “championships” help or hurt the sport? Or both help and hurt boxing?

A. At a dinner recently I asked each guest to name a current heavyweight champion, four out of five could not. There, in and of itself, is the issue, an identity crisis. Championships are validated by defenses and the caliber of those challenges – the solution is not dilution but validation. The three individuals you mention were a gift to this sport and champions in our heart.

{15} In 1995, we attended the fight card that featured Shannon Briggs knocking out Abraham Okine at the Turning Stone Casino. There were numerous boxing greats in the crowd. Are there going to be more local boxing cards associated with the Hall of Fame induction ceremonies in the future?

A. I, like yourself, would also like to see more cards associated with the weekend. In the years ahead, let’s hope that the proper resources and conditions prevail to allow this to happen. The induction weekend is a wonderful opportunity for boxing fans from all over the world to enjoy the sport they love in the perfect setting, upstate New York.

Once again Patrick, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you and fight fans worldwide. I am grateful to this great sport and everyone who has helped make Canastota, New York, “Title Town U.S.A.” Fans can feel free to contact Mark Baker at P.O. Box 782, Hebron, CT 06248.